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[GooshGoosh]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying though. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your understanding of what I'm saying lol

Regardless.
Chakra system = Physical system like vascular system.
Chakra = Ethereal force that's like a life energy, unlike blood.

I hope that made my standing on the subject clear

So, as a parallel, it would be like the veins in our bodies being physical while the blood that flows through them are ethereal. Huh. 

[Vail]

Alright, let's stop using the word "ethereal". That's just making this a lot more confusing than it needs to be.

I was going to say a better parallel is that neurons are matter while the electrical impulses are energy, but technically the electrical signals are streams of electrons, which themselves are matter.

With that being said, I posit that chakra is a fundamental force of the Naruto universe that, as shown in the show, doesn't normally interact with the electromagnetic force unless in extremely large or concentrated doses (hence it being invisible to the naked eye in most cases and only becoming visible when a person has a crap ton of chakra or when it's concentrated). This is further supported by people who can form solid objects out of chakra, meaning that large amounts of chakra are condensed into a given area. This force would of course be mediated by a fundamental particle just as the EM force is mediated by the photon. The physics of this is explanation is a lot more completed than that, so if anyone wants a more in depth explanation just hit me up @Tobias on SL.

Operating under this explanation, it's easy to understand why physical attacks like taijutsu wouldn't disturb the chakra circulatory system despite it being made of matter (toss out physical, too, because that is a vague and unhelpful descriptor). Chakra doesn't interact with the electromagnetic force in most cases, meaning that you can't like punch someone in the throat and upset their chakra because the chakra itself doesn't obey what's known as the Pauli Exclusion Principle -- no two fermions (such as electrons) can not occupy the same place in space.

This is why electrons repel each other, which is really what's happening when you touch, punch, kick, or stab something. Your electrons are repelling the electrons of that other thing. Since chakra doesn't obey this, this explains why you need to use chakra (such as gentle fist and rasenshuriken) to damage the chakra circulatory system.

Any questions?

[Becquerel]

I really don't see the reason for having to get so scientific about it It should just be simple enough to understand that it's just like ki/chi or whatever your life-force of choice is flowing through these tiny tubes that are like capillaries. Life force doesn't really need to apply to the laws of science/nature because it's fictional. Maybe I just don't see the point in it.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

You guys seem to be forgetting that chakra is a combination of physical and spiritual energies.

I don't know, maybe think of it like this:

The brain is a physical organ, the mind is the energy it produces and stores, while the soul/spirit is what directs its choices. Where does it all reside? We now say in the brain, we used to say in the heart, some cultures once thought it was the stomach,  hence our gut reactions to things. It is interesting to humans to debate such things, hence philosophy. And that can certainly take this discussion into whole worlds of possible directions. lol

As for the Kaguya being able to heal a physical chakra system every time they rip out their spine, it is no more fanciful than them being able to instantly repair all the other physical systems of the body that are disrupted by such a stunt.

Back to the poisoning of the body to prevent the use of chakra...

It would have to be pretty elaborately worded and extremely well thought out for me to take that hit. I would want a ton of why's explained to me other than just to accept it based on the phrase, its chakra poison so will stop yours from working. I would accept that having my body super charged by another's chakra would make me ill due to the differences in chakra natures...like what happens with the wrong type of blood transfusion, before I would accept someone being able to poison my body to stop me from using my own chakra. Not so much Moenkopi, she has her defenses...

But at the same time, we are shown many different instances of chakra infusions to another being just fine and dandy. I have rp'd that myself, as well as many other jutsu that just do not seem to make a whole lot of sense but are canon to the manga.

In the end I have to say again, that there is a physical aspect to chakra creation but also a spiritual side as well. And I ask...would a physical poison be able to prevent me from using jutsu that were driven by a purely spiritual energy? Or am I totally misunderstanding the application of the Yin based jutsu?

[Vail]

Because my explanation actually makes sense and gives a definite answer when the last two pages have just been people parotting the same two positions without reaching a conclusion.

The scientific explanation accommodates both viewpoints that arise from things we've seen in the show. I don't get why you're so opposed to my using science to provide better understanding on some topics, like this one.

Like I've said previously, the "this is fiction" argument is facile because the laws of nature aren't radically different in this particular fiction in the first place. Are we to forego Newton's laws of motion despite EVERY instance in the show showing that they exist in Naruto, simply because it's fiction?

[Vail]

"The brain is a physical organ, the mind is the energy it produces and stores, while the soul/spirit is what directs its choices. " But that's wrong, at least the latter half. The mind isn't energy, nor are thoughts. They're just as much physical as the brain is. I don't even know what a soul or a spirit is, so I'm not really going to touch on that.

[Becquerel]

I have no problem with using science to understand things, but it just really doesn't apply very well when you try to mix anime and science together. Especially when you have people ripping holes into other dimensions, spitting out lake-worthy amounts of water, and summoning meteors from space. I appreciate that the author tried to establish his own kind of pseudo-science back in the start of the manga when he was explaining how people can use chakra to walk on water or walk up trees and stand upside-down...But the series jumped the shark as far as ninjas go long ago when they basically turned into wizards.

I appreciate the fact that you're trying to bring science into this world, I really do. And I'm jealous of your knowledge, but I know that you're a physics major and I know that I will never be that. It's the same reason why so many 'medical' things in Naruto just give me that nails-on-chalkboard feeling. It just doesn't make sense lol But, I understand that it's a manga about Ninja so it's okay.

[Vail]

That's why I only try to use science to explain things that aren't totally left field. I mean, there's not much that I can't explain, but there's certain things in Naruto that would require some serioooous studying to even began to try to explain, so it isn't worth it.

I'm actually not a physics major. I'm a neuroscience major I get what you're saying, though. Which is why I suspend my disbelief for the majority of things.

[Bocchiere]

I don't know why everyone insists on hand-waving away every point I bring up about why it would be impossible for the chakra system to be physical but ok.

I also don't know why people think the fact that there are illustrations of the chakra system which logically would have been drawn to make it easy to understand how it works means that it is physical in nature. Ever see these in a mall?



Every mall around here has at least one, I don't know, Ohio is weird. But the point is that image is just so you understand how the acupuncture, theoretically, works. It is not saying the inside of your foot actually looks like that.

Between myself and Tobias I think we have much more logical explanations than all of the hand waving required for the chakra system to be physical in nature and that it can be affected by physical attacks.

[Eric]

I don't know why everyone insists on hand-waving away every point I bring up about why it would be impossible for the chakra system to be physical but ok...

Probably because you have done the same with other people's assumptions.

Every mall around here has at least one, I don't know, Ohio is weird. But the point is that image is just so you understand how the acupuncture, theoretically, works. It is not saying the inside of your foot actually looks like that.

The theoretical aspect of acupuncture still impacts physical systems, theoretically at/via the regions shown, which are physical in nature (they may not look like that nor be shaped like that, but said regions do exist. The wrong placement can screw the whole thing up).

... With that being said, I posit that chakra is a fundamental force of the Naruto universe that, as shown in the show, doesn't normally interact with the electromagnetic force unless in extremely large or concentrated doses (hence it being invisible to the naked eye in most cases and only becoming visible when a person has a crap ton of chakra or when it's concentrated)...

And with special dojutsu it is also visible. However, the chakra circulatory network cannot itself be made of chakra, because by your argument, chakra is a fundamental force, and though a fundamental force can transfer energy, it is not itself matter. If the matter making up the network and permitting the circulation is made of something other than chakra, it has to be able to interact with the body at least for the acquiition of physical energy and at most in order to aide with life processes.

Remember, when chakra equals absolute 0, said person dies according to Kakashi, so even a 1 bit of chakra can sustain life, even if barely, meaning that the occasions where it does interfere with the EM force are not as exceptional as I originally read you intending. If an ordinary shinobi has thier arm cut off with a regular katana, they cannot channel chakra through their arm anymore the connection of regular bodily systems and of the chakra network has been cut off. Even Kakuzu had his arm still attached by special chakra threads when he detached it.

If a person's body is thrown into a pit of lava and they "melt", their chakra network is not just left behind; the network itself melts along with them. As to what happens with the chakra, we can assume that it dissipates, or perhaps even becomes natural energy. Not really sure on that one.

LIke the metal coils of an electromagnet, the physical chakra network is necessary for the proper flow and manipulation of chakra through the body. However, like magnetism, the chakra can be transferred to special objects (such as Asuma's chakra blades) to create special effects and chakra flow techniques.

To wrap what I"m saying more compactly, the chakra network cannot both be "non-physical", "intangible", "spiritual", etc. and be made of matter, "disruptable by non-chakra based attacks", etc.

[Bocchiere]

Because no one is actually providing evidence that it is physical. You just keep showing me the same images of the chakra network and saying see this means it's physical. No one is providing me any examples of situations that suggest it is physical and at the same time is just going eh naruto doesn't make sense to mine that suggest it being physical is impossible.

And kakuzu's arm was not connected to him at all, it wouldn't have escaped the shadow possession if it was. He put a heart in it which let it move detached from his body.

[Teostra]

But Lee explained it in the picture you're mentioning o_o The evidence is right there on that page. The chakra system is a physical thing and chakra is like some magic life force as the other people explained. If you still have questions, I recommend sending a letter to the following address and send hem any questions you have on the topic

Masashi Kishimoto
Shueisha Inc.
2-5-10 Hitotsubashi
Chiyoda-ku
Tokyo-to 101-8050
Japan

[Vail]

I don't know why everyone insists on hand-waving away every point I bring up about why it would be impossible for the chakra system to be physical but ok...

Probably because you have done the same with other people's assumptions.

Every mall around here has at least one, I don't know, Ohio is weird. But the point is that image is just so you understand how the acupuncture, theoretically, works. It is not saying the inside of your foot actually looks like that.

The theoretical aspect of acupuncture still impacts physical systems, theoretically at/via the regions shown, which are physical in nature (they may not look like that nor be shaped like that, but said regions do exist. The wrong placement can screw the whole thing up).

... With that being said, I posit that chakra is a fundamental force of the Naruto universe that, as shown in the show, doesn't normally interact with the electromagnetic force unless in extremely large or concentrated doses (hence it being invisible to the naked eye in most cases and only becoming visible when a person has a crap ton of chakra or when it's concentrated)...

And with special dojutsu it is also visible. However, the chakra circulatory network cannot itself be made of chakra, because by your argument, chakra is a fundamental force, and though a fundamental force can transfer energy, it is not itself matter. If the matter making up the network and permitting the circulation is made of something other than chakra, it has to be able to interact with the body at least for the acquiition of physical energy and at most in order to aide with life processes.

Remember, when chakra equals absolute 0, said person dies according to Kakashi, so even a 1 bit of chakra can sustain life, even if barely, meaning that the occasions where it does interfere with the EM force are not as exceptional as I originally read you intending. If an ordinary shinobi has thier arm cut off with a regular katana, they cannot channel chakra through their arm anymore the connection of regular bodily systems and of the chakra network has been cut off. Even Kakuzu had his arm still attached by special chakra threads when he detached it.

If a person's body is thrown into a pit of lava and they "melt", their chakra network is not just left behind; the network itself melts along with them. As to what happens with the chakra, we can assume that it dissipates, or perhaps even becomes natural energy. Not really sure on that one.

LIke the metal coils of an electromagnet, the physical chakra network is necessary for the proper flow and manipulation of chakra through the body. However, like magnetism, the chakra can be transferred to special objects (such as Asuma's chakra blades) to create special effects and chakra flow techniques.

To wrap what I"m saying more compactly, the chakra network cannot both be "non-physical", "intangible", "spiritual", etc. and be made of matter, "disruptable by non-chakra based attacks", etc.

"However, the chakra circulatory network cannot itself be made of chakra, because by your argument, chakra is a fundamental force, and though a fundamental force can transfer energy, it is not itself matter. If the matter making up the network and permitting the circulation is made of something other than chakra, it has to be able to interact with the body at least for the acquisition of physical energy and at most in order to aide with life processes. "

That's a good point, Eric. To modify what I said a bit, perhaps we could think of chakra as a form of matter/energy (the dividing line between those two isn't as thick as we commonly think) that INTERACTS with the EM force (therefore allowing it to affect physical systems like the body and to be visible to regular eyes and doujutsu). I think that remedies the dilemma you brought up.

[Bocchiere]

But Lee explained it in the picture you're mentioning o_o The evidence is right there on that page. The chakra system is a physical thing and chakra is like some magic life force as the other people explained. If you still have questions, I recommend sending a letter to the following address and send hem any questions you have on the topic

Masashi Kishimoto
Shueisha Inc.
2-5-10 Hitotsubashi
Chiyoda-ku
Tokyo-to 101-8050
Japan

No it isn't evidence. He says it is similar to the vascular system and explains what it does. You're choosing to assume one of those similarities is that it is physical in nature, in spite of the fact that I keep providing examples of things that people do that would be impossible if the system is physical, or if it is not what Tobias is trying to explain.

[Ѕhadow]

Maybe.