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[Vail]

I have to agree with Bocc, Teostra. You're begging the question. That is, assuming the truth of your conclusion in your premises.

[Eric]

Because no one is actually providing evidence that it is physical. You just keep showing me the same images of the chakra network and saying see this means it's physical. No one is providing me any examples of situations that suggest it is physical and at the same time is just going eh naruto doesn't make sense to mine that suggest it being physical is impossible.

And kakuzu's arm was not connected to him at all, it wouldn't have escaped the shadow possession if it was. He put a heart in it which let it move detached from his body.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kakuzu

Kakuzu's abilities revolved around his unique body structure, which was composed of hundreds of thick, grey tendrils woven throughout his flesh called Earth Grudge Fear, holding his body together like the stitches of a rag-doll. This allowed him to separate his body parts at will, perform long-range physical attacks, and sew up almost any injury he suffered.

Earth grudge fear allows him to separate his body parts, but those parts are still "attached" via the grey tendrils. The gray tendrils are as much his body as the muscles and tendons and such of a non-earth grudgy person.

Regardless, when people lose their arms to katana cuts, their chakra network does not keep flowing chakra through the detached limb (the case of earth grudge fear can be summed up by the matter of the heart). The same way chakra can be surged into the body to overwhelm the standard circulatory system using medical ninjutsu, chakra can also be siphoned from the physical network as well. If the chakra system were ethereal, then it would continue to exist even without the other physical components of the body, given that chakra was still flowing through the body. Cutting someone's body in half does not cut their soul in half in their universe, most of the time, and would not be able to sever a spiritual, ethereal, or non-physical pathway and prevent it from flowing chakra to dismembered parts.

It does not make any sense for the chakra network system to not be physical. The Kaguya healing thing? They can take out their spine and be just fine, healing the normally unhealable without so much as a tear shed. If they can heal that, then I have little doubt that they can also heal their chakra network too if the damage is incurred as a result of using their KG.

That's a good point, Eric. To modify what I said a bit, perhaps we could think of chakra as a form of matter/energy (the dividing line between those two isn't as thick as we commonly think) that INTERACTS with the EM force (therefore allowing it to affect physical systems like the body and to be visible to regular eyes and doujutsu). I think that remedies the dilemma you brought up.

It was not a dilemma, it was a conclusion, I apologize if it read that otherwise. If chakra is an energy/matter form, then that analogy/position is completely unhelpful if you also posit that the network is made out of chakra. An energy/matter form, to my understanding, is not exactly something concrete enough to satisfy either argument; as a matter it would be tangible enough to be affected by a chemical poison, but as an energy the poison itself would have to possess an energy form of its own (heat or, more practical in this case, chakra) that would cause the effect on the System.

A thing that can be classified as both literally has questions marks for this observer. The most I can make sense of the concept is reading some of the first paragraphs of this article:

https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/

Your original position of it being a fundamental force makes much more sense (at least to me) and is less ambiguous as to the answer to the original problem: is the chakra network tangibly "physical" or intangibly "ethereal"?

The original position falls behind your latest only when considering that the tailed beasts are made entirely of chakra, but can have massive forms that are very much like bodies in many ways, but can also be stored inside of people and things (jinchurikii and Sage jars respectively). The 9-tails being "a force of nature" THEN would make sense in a more ironic way that would be lost on a reader (and not likely be intended by the writer), but still, being eaten alive by and eating a force is... Just out there. Unless you argue it's a "natives unable to describe it any other way" point.

Nevertheless, getting back on track, even if chakra is some sort of energy/matter thing, then keeping this thing circulating through the body and released (and perhaps even taken through) tenketsu would require a system capable of interacting with and being interacted with matter, and thus likely itself being made of matter at least partially, potentially containing particles that move the chakra. We know that chakra can be infused into matter:

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chakra_blades

If something were to happen to the physical particles, then the chakra network would be affected. Even if the whole network could not be dissected and held in gloved hands, parts of it would have to be.

[Vail]

“An energy/matter form, to my understanding, is not exactly something concrete enough to satisfy either argument; as a matter it would be tangible enough to be affected by a chemical poison, but as an energy the poison itself would have to possess an energy form of its own (heat or, more practical in this case, chakra) that would cause the effect on the System.

A thing that can be classified as both literally has questions marks for this observer. The most I can make sense of the concept is reading some of the first paragraphs of this article:

https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/”
It being matter does not necessarily mean that it would be affected by a chemical poison. The degree of “tangibility” (that’s not even a term that makes sense in the context of physics) doesn’t determine whether or not something is affected by a particular poison, its chemical composition does. Also, heat isn’t energy. Heat is the process by which thermal energy is transferred from one body to another. Since we’re talking about physics, there’s no such thing as an “energy form”. Things possess energy. For example, a poison contains chemical energy between the bonds of atoms and molecules that comprise it.

Also, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding here. When I said “matter/energy”, I wasn’t saying that chakra was both. I might be wrong, but I believe I very clearly stated that chakra was made up of an elementary particle (let’s say the Chakraton just for the explanation) just as electromagnetic waves are comprised of the photon.

“The original position falls behind your latest only when considering that the tailed beasts are made entirely of chakra, but can have massive forms that are very much like bodies in many ways, but can also be stored inside of people and things (jinchurikii and Sage jars respectively). The 9-tails being "a force of nature" THEN would make sense in a more ironic way that would be lost on a reader (and not likely be intended by the writer), but still, being eaten alive by and eating a force is... Just out there. Unless you argue it's a "natives unable to describe it any other way" point.”

Again, this is remedied by my assertion that the elementary particle that makes up chakra (the Chakraton, as so poorly named earlier) comes to interact with the electromagnetic force, and even begins to behave like it in sufficient quantities and concentration. This explains how people are able to see it, even with dojutsu, how jutsu can mimic real life objects like rocks, flames, etc, and how the tailed beasts can literally be made of chakra.

Additionally, while my mind is on the Dojutsu thing, my explanation for Dojutsu being able to see chakra normally is this: The minimum threshold (that is, the amount or concentration of chakra in a particular area) required for chakra to be visible to a Dojutsu user is far lower than a person with regular eyes.

Or perhaps it could be that just like light, (that is, electromagnetic waves) chakra that has a particular wavelength falls outside of the range of human vision. Under that explanation, dojutsu users just have a larger spectrum at their disposal, like other animals on earth who can see into the infrared or ultraviolet light.

“Nevertheless, getting back on track, even if chakra is some sort of energy/matter thing, then keeping this thing circulating through the body and released (and perhaps even taken through) tenketsu would require a system capable of interacting with and being interacted with matter, and thus likely itself being made of matter at least partially, potentially containing particles that move the chakra. We know that chakra can be infused into matter:

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chakra_blades

If something were to happen to the physical particles, then the chakra network would be affected. Even if the whole network could not be dissected and held in gloved hands, parts of it would have to be. “

Again, elementary particle (Chakraton) that interacts with the electromagnetic force. I’ve been arguing that it was matter from the jump.

This doesn’t however means there’s a tangible system like the circulatory system running through the body. It could just as easily be a convenient way of describing the common paths that chakra travels throughout the body, it being invisible to the naked eye because chakra itself is invisible to the naked eye in its unrefined form.

[Bocchiere]

Earth grudge fear allows him to separate his body parts, but those parts are still "attached" via the grey tendrils. The gray tendrils are as much his body as the muscles and tendons and such of a non-earth grudgy person.

How do you not know how Shadow Possession works? If you knew only one thing it should be how shadow possession works. You are agonizing. Just stretching his arm wouldn't free him from Shadow Possession and that isn't what he does. He completely detaches his arm but places one of his extra hearts inside of it so it can move on its own.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Earth_Grudge_Fear

"He could detach parts of his limbs and then manipulate them, to the point that he could even send them underground and then reattach them when he was done with them."



When did anyone ever say the chakra system would remain in a severed arm? If anything it flows out from the heart and if say, your arm got cut off, it wouldn't be able to flow there anymore.

And what is your counter-argument for the Kaguya thing? Oh it must just work anyway. They must be able to use their destroyed chakra network to heal their chakra network because the only other option is that Bocchiere is right and that can't possibly be the case. Eric you have no idea what you're talking about.

This is SL for you. I come in with a logical argument to try and discuss something and people just respond with, "I'm just going to baselessly assume there is some unknowable thing going on behind the scenes that makes your argument incorrect." Great. Good job.

[Vail]

Gotta agree with bocchy here.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

This discussion has gotten...well...imma pull a Shadow here and save my sanity by not reading that latest round of posts since last i commented.

I just want to respond to the kaguya thing...

it has NEVER made sense how they can rip out their spine...severing the spinal cord in the process...and continue to pull it completely from their body...when they should not be able to send signals to their arms anymore...and then proceed to beat someone to death with the stupid thing.

so...if the chakra system were a physical entity in the body...it would make as much sense for a kaguya to be able to instantly repair that as it does for them to instantly repair the central nervous system.

arhg....I couldn't stand being like Shadow after all and had to read them...some...

to Vail....about chakra after death. I actually have a character who harvests this. She attributes spirituality to the issue, saying that if the soul willingly gives up part of this energy...it becomes Seiton, an energy source of light, the soul regenerates. If it is harvested against the will of the soul, then it becomes Kokuton, an energy source of darkness. the soul is completely consumed.
It is highly concentrate in either case not having to be responsible for maintaining the life of the being any longer.

[Eric]

Earth grudge fear allows him to separate his body parts, but those parts are still "attached" via the grey tendrils. The gray tendrils are as much his body as the muscles and tendons and such of a non-earth grudgy person.

How do you not know how Shadow Possession works? If you knew only one thing it should be how shadow possession works. You are agonizing. Just stretching his arm wouldn't free him from Shadow Possession and that isn't what he does. He completely detaches his arm but places one of his extra hearts inside of it so it can move on its own.

The arm is still connected to him via the grey tendrils, not physically connected to him. The grey tendrils are a part of his body, even if it they are not physically attached to him, that is the point being made here. If the heart were taken out of the arm and eaten by a jashinist, the heart would not be of use, but Kakuzu could re-attach the grey tendrils to him as if he had not lost them in the first place thanks to his jutsu (albeit he would be more likely to replace the threads than go recycling imho).

And what is your counter-argument for the Kaguya thing? Oh it must just work anyway.

Counter-argument? To the Kaguyas being able to regenerate pretty much anything in their body, including spinal and nerve tissues, when the damage is caused by their own KG jutsu? That's a matter of fact not assumption. Your argument was that the System is supposedly irreparable, and so the Kaguyas being able to do what they do is further evidence that the System must be spiritual, which is incorrect since they can also repair physical damage done to their body unfixable for the average joe.

When did anyone ever say the chakra system would remain in a severed arm?

If the System is spiritual, ethereal, however you might would put it at this point, then why would the connection/flow be severed merely by the removal of the arm? Even magnets retain some magnetic field if they cut into pieces, but when the arm is disconnected from the average person, it does not retain its chakra. The System can be severed even without the use of chakra, therefore chakra being the only thing capable of damaging the System must also be false.

This indeed is SL for ya. You say one thing, people read another, and you can spend eternity trying to get on the same page.

Vail, you forgot all the quote tags. 

It being matter does not necessarily mean that it would be affected by a chemical poison. The degree of “tangibility” (that’s not even a term that makes sense in the context of physics)

Tangibility requires the particles to be close enough to be able to be detected by a sense of touch. Since the original question of whether the System can be held in the hand would require a human sense of touch, when I say tangible, a substance that has its particles close enough to be detected by the sense of touch. Not temperature or light, but touch in its non-physics sense.

Or perhaps it could be that just like light, (that is, electromagnetic waves) chakra that has a particular wavelength falls outside of the range of human vision. Under that explanation, dojutsu users just have a larger spectrum at their disposal, like other animals on earth who can see into the infrared or ultraviolet light.

Sometimes, the simplest answer is the best. I think for visibility factor that is probably the best one to go with.

This doesn’t however means there’s a tangible system like the circulatory system running through the body. It could just as easily be a convenient way of describing the common paths that chakra travels throughout the body, it being invisible to the naked eye because chakra itself is invisible to the naked eye in its unrefined form.

I cannot agree there, unless you can explain what keeps chakra at the Chakraton level from free flowing through the body. Why is there a particular path that the chakra travels instead of it just being uncoordinated as it travels through the body? The most likely explanation is that there is something that keeps it going along the path. Unless it is flowing through blood or an already present vessel system, I do not see it not having a path all its own.

[Bocchiere]

I'm locking this topic now because no one has been able to provide a logical explanation for the system being physical and Eric is so ignorant about everything he's talking about that it's actually making me mad.