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Yes

13 (52%)

No

12 (48%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Voting closed: June 15, 2016, 05:28:45 AM

[Bocchiere]

Votes must be explained to count, as to prevent ballot stuffing.

Current Votes:
Yes: Bocchiere, Jay, Ray , Neko, Athos, Shadow, Tobias, Kage, Masane, Miyamoto, Hades, Rai, Trev: 13
No: Warren, Kay, Koji, Bec, Eric, Kamui, Teostra: 7

[Nekomaru]

I say yes since it is still a living being  that is on par with the Bijuu so I think it should be treated as such.

[Warren]

No because reibi is an actual beast while mazo is only an item/statue, because it has many times over many years been agreed nigh unanimously that the juubi is not to be made on SL, because classifying something as defense obligated because its "alive" would require active defense of near entire claimed list

And because even if juubi hypothetically was made it would turn bijuu matters even more pointless than they are by not just removing all beasts from circulation, which is exactly the kind of hogging the rules etc. are meant to prevent,

[KayentaMoenkopi]

No.

You know even if you get votes saying yes, Warren in no way has to give it up, make it challenger, or be pushed around over his rightful property.

I really do not see the point of this topic other than to cause an argument.

[Becquerel]

I vote no, because then there would have to be regulation of just about everything that's out there. People are pretty good at self-regulating the things in this game, but doing it this way means that there's got to be multiple people involved and more hands than needs to be be touching it.

I do not see how this is any different than the samehada. The samehada absorbs chakra, and gets stronger as it does so. The same could be said of the Mazo. And both are technically alive. Just like any other claimed item, if someone wants it then they should just try confronting a player through RP.

[Suishou Koji]

Between Kay's and Bec's post, that pretty much covered it.

My vote is no. Like Warren said, Reibi is a Bijuu and the Gedo Mazo is a statue that eventually becomes a key instrument in the creation of the Ten Tails. Both are important things to have in the SL Universe, even though the Reibi was in a Naruto movie.

[Bocchiere]

Let me make these particular points as clear as possible since they keep coming up.

THE REIBI IS NOT A BIJUU

"The Zero-Tails (零尾, Reibi) is a malevolent spirit, created by the dark thoughts and feelings of the downtrodden people, sealed within the Land of the Sky."

"Despite the beast referring to itself as Zero-Tails and Shinnō referring to it as a tailed beast, it is not really one of the original tailed beasts due to the fact that it was not born from the Ten-Tails."

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Zero-Tails

"In Naruto Shippūden the Movie: Bonds, both Amaru and Shinnō each tapped into the power of the Zero-Tails at different times; however, because the Zero-Tails is not an actual tailed beast, nor was the creature sealed in either of them, Amaru and Shinnō are not considered jinchūriki."

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Jinch%C5%ABriki#Similar_Cases

It is not a bijuu. It is no more a bijuu than Kisame is since he just is called the Tailed Beast without a Tail. Some dude just called it a bijuu. it's a huge poser.

Why can we challenge for 9 Tailed Beasts and one other completely separate creature with some similar traits? That's like going into an ice cream parlor that has 10 flavors of ice cream but one of the flavors is just Potato and it's actually potato salad. You can sell that as ice cream, you can put it in a cone, but that doesn't make it any less potato salad.

We're deciding on our 10th flavor here and our choice is potato salad (the Reibi) or lemon gelato (the mazo). That seems pretty obvious to me that we shouldn't pick potato salad just because it happens to be creamy like ice cream is. Why would you ignore the lemon gelato (the mazo) just because it is different version of ice cream in favor of the potato salad which is not even in the same class of food because of superficial similarities the two have? Moving on.

NO OBVIOUSLY NOT EVERYTHING ALIVE SHOULD BE DEFENDED


"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent."

That is what is being done here. I don't know how exactly Neko was trying to rationalize his thoughts but all I see is leaping on some phrase he used in a not entirely beautifully constructed post and latching onto it as an attempt to completely dismiss the discussion. No logical person is arguing that because the statue is alive it has to be defended and there for so does every living thing. The statue should be defended because it is a piece of the 10 tails just like the Bijuu are, not because it's alive. Ok so now we can move on to,

THE MAZO SHOULD BE DEFENDED IN PLACE OF THE REIBI BECAUSE:

"Reibi is a Bijuu and the Gedo Mazo is a statue " - Koji

"No because reibi is an actual beast while mazo is only an item/statue" - Warren

I already explained how the first part is explicitly wrong, so lets work on the second, the Mazo being "just" a statue.

First, where did the term Demonic Statue come from?

"After the Sage of Six Paths separated the Ten-Tails' chakra from its body to create the nine tailed beasts, he used Chibaku Tensei to seal the beast's husk within the newly-created moon. Centuries later, Madara Uchiha awakened the Rinnegan and used it to break the seal and summon the husk, which he christened the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path."

So it's called a statue just because Madara summoned it, looked at it, and decided it was called the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path now. So basically the same logic in which Columbus decided Native Americans are now called Indians. Fantastic. So by that logic I can just declare Warren the secret 11 tailed beast and challenge for him and capture the mazo that way, right?

It isn't a statue, we know it's not a statue, it's basically the mummified husk of the 10 tails. Why can we challenge for the fragmented chakra of the 10 tails but not it's body which is just as strong and relevant as the beasts are? Statues don't ooze organic matter when you dismember them.



Statues do not become "incapacitated".

"Personal
Status   
Incapacitated"

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Demonic_Statue_of_the_Outer_Path

If I seal my scythe in a scroll is it also incapacitated? No because that is an object and the Mazo is not.

Oh what's the Mazo classified as?

"Classification   
Summon"

Ok so whats a summon? If you click on that you get a soft redirect to the page for the summoning technique which does what?

"The Summoning Technique is a space–time ninjutsu that allows the summoner to transport animals or people across long distances instantly and uses blood as a sacrifice."

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning_Technique

Animals or people, not objects. Breaking down which the Mazo is is a bit harder since its the emaciated but still living husk of the fusion of an near-omnipotent alien and a tree. So I guess that makes it people...? 

Regardless every argument against this other than Kayentas was either wrong, "The Reibi is a bijuu the Mazo is an item!" or misplaced concern, "You'd have to defend every living thing then!" None of those things are true and I'd hope you could all see the effort I put into proving this to be the case and note changing your votes of no to yes.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

Explaining my vote of no?

I don't want yet another thing to have to fight over and create an even more complicated set of rules, for by virtue of the massively OPness of the item will surely be one heck of a nightmare task to end all nightmares, nor do I wish to even imagine what the implications of its existence thrown out into the general public will be.

The Zero tails? Am not a fan of it either, but it was already hosted, passed on, and fought for based upon its SL status as a bijuu that has to be defended from challenges. Why the sudden desire to see it gone? Why not just go for 11 challenge beasties? Whatever, that question is besides the point.

When Kyo and I brought the dang gone thing into existence, it was for the express purpose of locking it up from ever entering the general public. Otherwise I would never have aided him in the first place! We saw how ridiculous the manga was becoming, the trickle down effect of that causing issue in SL rp, and you know what? Other people didn't care much for it either, hence the push to ban a mega-ton of stuff after chapter 600!

Yes...I am also for banning all nukes! WHY? Having a weapon out there that can literally destroy the world is a...hear my hushed spooky voice now... Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad thing....oooooh. I shiver to think of it.

Know that it is my fuuinjutsu that sealed the blame thing...and good luck picking that apart and gaining any kind of control over it.

what else?
yes, this is just my opinion, but now it has been explained.

Perhaps you wonder, well why is it fine for Warren to have it and no one else? Not Bocchiere? Warren is not going to use it to destroy the world, and you will Bocch. What? It's just going to be an OOC destruction of the world? Well? Use an OOC 10 tails. No need to make its distribution and ability to be challenged for an IC thing, right? Call down your own statue from the moon, seal it and bind it to your being, run amok.

We need not go to all this trouble over an OOC event. We need not pit ourselves against each other yet again when the solution is just that obvious.
I have 10,000 alt. It will be Fun to see how many ways I can have them die...in your OOC event!

We really can have it both ways here.

Or maybe not...maybe when the few people who think about coming out to rp in public see such an OP event in their face they will throw up their hands and say , 'what is the point of even trying?' Maybe it will be bad. Who can say?

All I know is that creating issues to bicker about is definitely counter productive to SL activity and makes my stomach hurt.

[Warren]

Well Kay said what I was gonna and a load more, so I'ma just applaud. There's been a way to get what you wanted from getgo, without hounding a load of people to no end and making them so sick mere mention of beast makes them gag. But you haven't taken it because why? Honestly speaking looks like little else than pure spite at this point.

[Bocchiere]

I mean we could add the Mazo and not remove the Reibi. I didn't consider that actually. I just wanted the Reibi removed because it's really not a bijuu at all.

Kay I get the idea of trying to stop World Level destruction from entering the general public, but you guys failed at that.

"Complete Body — Susanoo (完成体　須佐能乎, Kanseitai — Susanoo, Viz: Perfect Susanoo).[16] In this state, Susanoo gains a tengu-like nose, wings for flight, and is clad with robes and ornate armour. This form possesses power comparable to that of a tailed beast, capable of levelling giant mountains and, when enhanced by Six Paths Chakra, small planetoids with ease. "

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo

"The impact of this technique was of such enormity that it devastated a significant portion of the Fourth Division with the resulting tremors being felt as far away as the Allied Shinobi Forces' headquarters.[2] It was also able to completely destroy Madara's Susanoo, and obliterate his body."

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tengai_Shinsei

"The resulting damage that this technique can produce varies considerably, depending on the initial shape of the created structure. For example, when fabricated in the form of a cube, the structure possesses a relatively small blast radius, minimising the possibility for collateral damage. However, the conical version was implied to be enough to potentially destroy an entire island."

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Dust_Release:_Detachment_of_the_Primitive_World_Technique

"Shinra Tensei can be used on a larger scale for massive destruction. A massive amount of repulsive force is placed above the target, crushing everything beneath in an enormous explosion."

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Shinra_Tensei

I have ALL 4 OF THOSE, and so can basically anyone else at this point. I'm sure there were good intentions at the time but now just keeping the Mazo out of circulation because it's strong enough to blow everything up is a pretty pointless thing to insist on.

Funny you should mention spite though Warren because unlike Kay I can't really imagine you having good intentions. You claim to have important plans for the Mazo but how long have you had it now? At least a year. What are you still doing? Unless you're acting out Black Zetsu's plan in real time I can't imagine what you wouldn't be finished with by now. How many people have gotten to interact in anyway with the Mazo through out the time it's been had by Yumei, Kyu, and then you? Maybe the chicks you take back to your bachelor pad on the moon, if they're lucky? I'm willing to bet twice as many people got to interact with the Mazo the one time Hazama was allowed to summon it during Akatsuki's attack on Kiri than ever before or ever again.

Honestly the only issue is that I want it, it makes infinitely more sense for the Mazo to be challenge-able over the Reibi and the only reason people aren't readily agreeing to that simple fact is because I'd use the Mazo.

But the Mazo should be available for the same reason that I was adamant about one person being able to hold multiple bijuu in the rules topic, people who want to rp as villains and such have as much a right to as the people who want to do peaceful rps. So making rules to expressly prevent their plans from being carried out is not ok to me, and forming private cabals among ourselves to keep items that we personally don't want to see in rp out of circulation is not ok to me either.

I'm sure they intent was good at the the time but I think the decision was a wrong one, and I want to correct it. The Mazo is a piece of the 10 tails just like the Bijuu and should be defendable just like the bijuu.

Did shit get really OP at the end of Naruto, yeah, but some people are going to want to rp that, just like some people would rather rp like Shippuden had never happened, and both of them are completely right to rp those things.

If there was some ability that was irreconcilably broken, like how when Izanami was revealed but before it was explained some people were honestly going, "Izanami! It's your destiny to have a heart attack! You die!" that's ridiculous. That's just a Death Note with no prerequisite. If that was how that jutsu worked than yes we would be doing good to remove it from rp. There is no benefit that techniques existence could give us.

Honestly I would prefer that all canon items could be challenged for, if not like a bijuu than just that you'd be obligated to at least rp with a person who wants to try and get it because if you're not willing to defend what you have than you don't deserve it. I know that will never happen but that's how I feel about Warren and the Mazo and Kiri and their swords. I completely think that if push came to shove both of them would rather their item be destroyed and cease to exist utterly than go to anyone else.

I can vividly picture someone actually spending a year infiltrating Kiri and successfully stealing all 7 of the swordsmen blades only for Kiri to go, "Well, actually there's a seal on them and if anyone ever leaves the village with all seven swords the seal activates and vaporizes all seven of the blades and the person who stole them." Tell me you couldn't see that.

That's the issue we have here because people want to rp whatever they want and unfortunately that includes never ever losing in even the slightest fashion to anyone. You don't need to be OP to do  that. If some people could just make it a rule that any rp where they lose is void they would do that. If that means there's a full half as much rp taking place than that's a worthy sacrifice to them.

I think limiting rp in any place that it does not expressly need to be limited is wrong. If this was a Part 1 Naruto rp site and we only rp'd from the start of Naruto to the Valley of the End fight than yes I could see saying no the Mazo shouldn't be used, that would be correct, the Mazo is way too strong for Naruto where we've barely begun tapping into Bijuu power. But we are open to the entire series and everything else as well.

Warren is a homunculus with a demon sealed inside him that lives on the Moon. That's not an insult, but that is funny. Anyone could rp that which, out of context, is a pretty comical scenario. There's 0 things wrong with that and it's completely accepted.

So what is so ridiculous about the Mazo that it needs to be sealed away? If it's just the things destructive power, as I've said already, anyone can destroy an entire village 3 ways to Sunday without much effort, so that's really a moot point.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

Hey. I'm one of the chicks that went to the bachelor pad on the moon! WHoot Whoot!

Well Mai is actually, but you get my drift. Ah it was certainly something else. Perty killer RP.

Oh gee. You know, just cause there are 27 ways to destroy the world, and we stopped one of them, doesn't really mean we all go...oh well...there are still 26 other ways to do it so release the Gedo Mazo!!!!
~ he he, that one tickles me.

And then I see a lot of stuff about free range chickens for the masses...very nice, very liberal. Yeah Freedom!

It's all well and good for people to want to play the villain, and no offense to all you bad guys we love to hate, but I really haven't seen anyone do a good job of it since Teostra and the Suna Zombie Apocalypse.

Well gee Kay, why is that? Are you on his pay roll or something and have to say that? *snort* I certainly will tell you why that is...

HE was beatable. If he hadn't been beatable the plague would have spread to the other villages and now everyone would be dead with no more RP to do...years ago. When you have a world destruction scenario, if the good guys don't win, then its game over. Once we are all dead there is literally nothing left to do and most pertinently, no one left for the bad guys to play with. No one was filled with the despair that it was pointless to RP the event, everyone had fun, and everyone of all power levels was able to participate.

Bad guys today just seem to exude a general aura of...I hate SL, I hate you guys, and I won't be happy until I put each and everyone of you under the heel of my boot and make your head explode like an over ripe melon while you lick my boot.

Hardly very fun at all to participate in an event that you know you are going to lose before you even make your opening post. That's nothing more than being a glorified npc for the express purpose of being just another target for the villain's rp enjoyment. Its much too one sided.

I am talking world destruction after all. It's fine if the bad guys win in other rp scenarios. Those other sorts do not wind up destroying everything that anyone has ever done/created/built up over the years and leave us all with nothing to do tomorrow.

The number of people who get to interact with someone and their particular piece of RP property, being a justifiable reason to open it up to challenges, is what is moot. Warren is active, he is using his property.

You think limiting rp in any place that it does not expressly need to be limited is wrong? Me too. However, I believe this is just such a place that needs limiting and has been successfully dealt with.

[Hazama]

Explaining my vote of no?

I don't want yet another thing to have to fight over and create an even more complicated set of rules, for by virtue of the massively OPness of the item will surely be one heck of a nightmare task to end all nightmares, nor do I wish to even imagine what the implications of its existence thrown out into the general public will be.

The Zero tails? Am not a fan of it either, but it was already hosted, passed on, and fought for based upon its SL status as a bijuu that has to be defended from challenges. Why the sudden desire to see it gone? Why not just go for 11 challenge beasties? Whatever, that question is besides the point.

When Kyo and I brought the dang gone thing into existence, it was for the express purpose of locking it up from ever entering the general public. Otherwise I would never have aided him in the first place! We saw how ridiculous the manga was becoming, the trickle down effect of that causing issue in SL rp, and you know what? Other people didn't care much for it either, hence the push to ban a mega-ton of stuff after chapter 600!

Yes...I am also for banning all nukes! WHY? Having a weapon out there that can literally destroy the world is a...hear my hushed spooky voice now... Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad thing....oooooh. I shiver to think of it.

Know that it is my fuuinjutsu that sealed the blame thing...and good luck picking that apart and gaining any kind of control over it.

what else?
yes, this is just my opinion, but now it has been explained.

Perhaps you wonder, well why is it fine for Warren to have it and no one else? Not Bocchiere? Warren is not going to use it to destroy the world, and you will Bocch. What? It's just going to be an OOC destruction of the world? Well? Use an OOC 10 tails. No need to make its distribution and ability to be challenged for an IC thing, right? Call down your own statue from the moon, seal it and bind it to your being, run amok.

We need not go to all this trouble over an OOC event. We need not pit ourselves against each other yet again when the solution is just that obvious.
I have 10,000 alt. It will be Fun to see how many ways I can have them die...in your OOC event!

We really can have it both ways here.

Or maybe not...maybe when the few people who think about coming out to rp in public see such an OP event in their face they will throw up their hands and say , 'what is the point of even trying?' Maybe it will be bad. Who can say?

All I know is that creating issues to bicker about is definitely counter productive to SL activity and makes my stomach hurt.

I don't know what Kyu you were talking to Em, but I know for a fact that he was more than willing to let someone use it for the Ten Tails. >> How would I know? Because him and I had something worked out, several times, when it came to the Mazo. If I showed the collection of a certain number of beasts, whether it was by my hand or the hand of a certain jashinist(take three guesses and the first two don't count) then he would let me use the Mazo.

If anything, he liked the Ten Tails idea but just lacked faith that anyone would ever collect enough Bijuu. He didn't try to act like a father keeping a collectable toy out of the handa of his three year old O.o

Hell, if anyone can recall a certain Kiri event, Kyu let me use the Mazo! OMG The Mazo had been used against a bunch of people in Kiri and they threw several long, like weeks long, bitch fits. It was annoying, even though everything that I had done was legit.

What I am getting at is Kyu shared and planned to share. We've now seen Warren say on countless levels that he plans on never sharing, never playing nice with others, and plans to use it for his private RPs and plots only. I mean, Kyu did that too, and it pissed people off then. But Kyu started to RP in a pleathora of villages, he made Zetsu for a handful of people that managed to ICly find him and know about what he could do(Hazama being one), and so on and so forth. And I'm sure either Kay or Warren, maybe Koji, will make a post and tell me hoowww active and eaassyyy it is the catch Warren. And to that, I say that is poop.

One of the things that has always irked me about Warren is that he RPs with the same people in a rotating door of RPers. And yet the man is somehow, basically, the SoSPs of this realm. This has little to do with the topic, so Ima drop it, but it is hard to not mention it when talking about him and the Mazo.

Originally, I would've happily said no to the Mazo being a beast, seeing as we have always treated it as an item... But then again, anyone use to be able to claim any Bijuu they wanted before Raifudo made the rules, stripped e'eryone, then handed them out to the 'top tier' RPers. And back when I use to be in the infamous Skype calls that some of you may know about, we always thought it was weird how we were accepting the Zero Tails as a beast and still couldn't get the Mazo. Because the Zero Tails use to be an item too, I remember going to get it once for Trev through RP as Athos eons ago.

And now we are treating it like a beast. See what happened there? Something that was seen as an item was instead shifted to Bijuu rules and put on the list of Beasts to challenge for. Why? Because things change over time. Things /always/ change over time when it comes to SL, anyone who has been here for even more than three years can See how much SL has changed, let alone the people who have been here even longer.

Remember when the Flying Tech was a thing but now anyone can just make themselves weightless? Or when only two people knew Hiraishin and now everyone and their mothers can essentially learn it? Hell, remember when Bocchiere the douche was the only Jashinist and now there are several? >>

Things change on SL for a reason, and I think it is time for us to act acccordingly and change this. So yeah, I think we should change the Mazo from an item to a beast.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

Athos said:

OMG The Mazo had been used against a bunch of people in Kiri and they threw several long, like weeks long, bitch fits. It was annoying, even though everything that I had done was legit.

And I said...


Hardly very fun at all to participate in an event that you know you are going to lose before you even make your opening post. That's nothing more than being a glorified npc for the express purpose of being just another target for the villain's rp enjoyment. Its much too one sided.


I can't imagine why the Kiri folk were so unhappy even though everything you did was legit...

End Game Scenarios are no fun.

[Bocchiere]

Athos said:

OMG The Mazo had been used against a bunch of people in Kiri and they threw several long, like weeks long, bitch fits. It was annoying, even though everything that I had done was legit.

And I said...


Hardly very fun at all to participate in an event that you know you are going to lose before you even make your opening post. That's nothing more than being a glorified npc for the express purpose of being just another target for the villain's rp enjoyment. Its much too one sided.


I can't imagine why the Kiri folk were so unhappy even though everything you did was legit...

End Game Scenarios are no fun.

We were there to capture their bijuu, you know that thing they refused to deal with? Oh yeah and they outnumbered is two to one. It wasn't a good rp before or after the mazo. You're defending them for an rp they chose to open themselves up to by having bijuu and one that isaribi was quoted as intentionally trying to ruin and get voided to keep the beasts. Don't pretend like that's not what happens any time anyone does anything to Kiri.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

bring the Gedo Mazo to Suna....

see how it goes?

I predict...

the same outcome.

• Don't pretend that we don't want the entire world destroyed by the Gedo Mazo and everything that we have ever done in RP for the last 10 years to be wiped from existence.
• Don't pretend that the entire shinobi world in the manga outnumbered the Gedo Mazo so that Kiri's handful of rpers ever had a chance.
• Don't pretend that it is fun for us to be glorified npcs.
• Don't pretend that you cannot have this event in OOC.